Transcript segment

Baric Transcribed Interview (Redacted), p.100 · baric_ti:utt:00867

Date: 2026-04-10 09:00 (day precision)
Type: transcript segment · interview
recipient: Christina Salazar, Harry Kazenoff, David T. Lambeth III, William Henderson, Clark Ervin, Jake Greenberg
speaker: Ralph S. Baric
Topics: Gain-of-function research Wuhan Institute of Virology collaboration

I'm going to get to that. So if you go back to the NSABB P3CO regulations, the regulations state that viruses, like flu, SARS, and MERS coronavirus, are highly pathogenic viruses, and highly transmissible viruses are covered by this program. And if you do anything on these particular viruses that are highly pathogenic or highly transmissible, and you do any manipulation to increase that, then that's considered gain-of-function and regulated by those documents, based on my read of them. There are exemptions to that gain-of-function regulation framework. The first is that if you work with zoonotic viruses, like WIV1, which has never been show to infect a human being, that has never shown to be transmissible in humans, it is not subject to the gain-of18 function regulatory framework. It has to be reviewed, but the review process would require that it be -- the review process would, based on the regulations, say it's not subject to those gain --

Extracted statements

Rule-extracted, not adjudicated. The grade says what may be done with each one; read the document above before relying on any of them.

Statement	Grade	Attribution	Stance
So if you go back to the NSABB P3CO regulations, the regulations state that viruses, like flu, SARS, and MERS coronavirus, are highly pathogenic viruses, and highly transmissible viruses are covered by this program.	own voice, substantive	speaker_own	asserts
And if you do anything on these particular viruses that are highly pathogenic or highly transmissible, and you do any manipulation to increase that, then that's considered gain-of-function and regulated by those documents, based on my read of them.	own voice, substantive	speaker_own	asserts
There are exemptions to that gain-of-function regulation framework.	needs context	speaker_own	asserts
The first is that if you work with zoonotic viruses, like WIV1, which has never been show to infect a human being, that has never shown to be transmissible in humans, it is not subject to the gain-of18 function regulatory framework.	own voice, substantive	speaker_own	asserts

Statement

Grade

Attribution

Stance

So if you go back to the NSABB P3CO regulations, the regulations state that viruses, like flu, SARS, and MERS coronavirus, are highly pathogenic viruses, and highly transmissible viruses are covered by this program.

own voice, substantive

speaker_own

asserts

And if you do anything on these particular viruses that are highly pathogenic or highly transmissible, and you do any manipulation to increase that, then that's considered gain-of-function and regulated by those documents, based on my read of them.

own voice, substantive

speaker_own

asserts

There are exemptions to that gain-of-function regulation framework.

needs context

speaker_own

asserts

The first is that if you work with zoonotic viruses, like WIV1, which has never been show to infect a human being, that has never shown to be transmissible in humans, it is not subject to the gain-of18 function regulatory framework.

own voice, substantive

speaker_own

asserts

In context

A single line often inverts meaning once you see what it answers, so neighbouring messages are always shown.

2026-04-10 09:00 Ralph S. Baric open

I think you're making an incorrect intuitive leap. I was trying to describe the two approaches that were being used to control viruses in a cave setting. The other approach was that having identified strains of viruses that had spike genes that could infect human cells and potentially cause human disease, those spike genes would be isolated and placed in virus vaccine vectors that would then be delivered to the bats in the cave, is the second approach. The first approach is immediate innate immune knockdown so that the virus burden in the cave goes down and it's less likely that a soldier will be infected. The second approach is to immunize the bats in that cave so that a virus burden would be very, very low, and it would be long-term protection so the cave could be used for a much longer period of time. So they are linked but they're different approaches to abrogate virus replication.
2026-04-10 09:00 Christina Salazar open

Okay. Would this have been subject to the gain-of-function pause in 2017? DC.Scheduling@LexitasLegal.com
2026-04-10 09:00 Ralph S. Baric open

So the short answer is no, up to a point, okay.
2026-04-10 09:00 Christina Salazar open

What's the point?
2026-04-10 09:00 Ralph S. Baric

I'm going to get to that. So if you go back to the NSABB P3CO regulations, the regulations state that viruses, like flu, SARS, and MERS coronavirus, are highly pathogenic viruses, and highly transmissible viruses are covered by this program. And if you do anything on these particular viruses that are highly pathogenic or highly transmissible, and you do any manipulation to increase that, then that's considered gain-of-function and regulated by those documents, based on my read of them. There are exemptions to that gain-of-function regulation framework. The first is that if you work with zoonotic viruses, like WIV1, which has never been show to infect a human being, that has never shown to be transmissible in humans, it is not subject to the gain-of18 function regulatory framework. It has to be reviewed, but the review process would require that it be -- the review process would, based on the regulations, say it's not subject to those gain --
2026-04-10 09:00 Christina Salazar open

But how do you know what you don't know?
2026-04-10 09:00 Ralph S. Baric open

Secondly, if you're doing work that's related to the development of vaccines or serology, it's also except from the gain-of-function policy. DC.Scheduling@LexitasLegal.com
2026-04-10 09:00 Christina Salazar open

Or national security. That was also an exemption.
2026-04-10 09:00 Ralph S. Baric open

I don't know what you mean by that.

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