--- type: Conversation title: Private channel session 1046 description: "slack conversation, 52 messages, 2021-03-01." tags: - conversation - slack medium: slack message_count: 52 started_at: "2021-03-01T14:23:12" ended_at: "2021-03-01T15:54:20" duration_seconds: 5468 sources: - { id: slack_pm, resource: /sources/slack-pm.md, title: Slack / Private Message Drop, author: "process:senate-hsgac-release" } generated: { by: randpaul-corpus-pipeline/1.0, at: "2026-08-01T12:42:27Z" } status: stable --- A slack conversation of 52 messages spanning 1h 31m. # Metadata - **Started:** 2021-03-01T14:23:12 - **Ended:** 2021-03-01T15:54:20 - **Duration:** 1h 31m - **Participants:** 4 - **Source:** [slack_pm](/sources/slack-pm.md) - **Pages:** 556-561 # Participants * [Andrew Rambaut](/people/andrew-rambaut.md) * [Edward C. Holmes](/people/edward-c-holmes.md) * [Kristian G. Andersen](/people/kristian-g-andersen.md) * [Robert F. Garry](/people/robert-f-garry.md) # Transcript **[2021-03-01T14:23:12] Andrew Rambaut:** This is utterly awful: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00525-x How to insult just about everyone, not cite any work done previously. **[2021-03-01T14:29:28] Edward C. Holmes:** Agreed! I pulled my name off. **[2021-03-01T14:29:31] Kristian G. Andersen:** Holy crap. Especially love this paragraph [shared file(s): Screen Shot 2021-03-01 at 14.25.52.png] **[2021-03-01T14:30:04] Kristian G. Andersen:** "... many of them early in their careers, who cobble together software and analytical tools in their own time to findessential answers" - Andrew, I assume that's you. Sorry, buddy. :face_with_rolling_eyes: **[2021-03-01T14:30:33] Edward C. Holmes:** It was really insulting to so many people!!! **[2021-03-01T14:31:15] Kristian G. Andersen:** This part is just unbelievable - "The Twitter thread became a key source of information on the new variant, and E.B.H.'s Christmas break was lost to crunching further sequences and briefing journalists". I'm glad she thinks sohighly of herself. I'm gonna give myself a prize too - I'm going to call it The Kristian Prize. **[2021-03-01T14:31:31] Kristian G. Andersen:** Of course - none of these people have sequenced anything.... **[2021-03-01T14:31:43] Kristian G. Andersen:** (or shared data) **[2021-03-01T14:31:55] Edward C. Holmes:** The original version of the paper was fine. It then degenerated into this...I told them multiple times that the focus onEmma was completely inappropriate. **[2021-03-01T14:31:56] Andrew Rambaut:** And she thinks her Christmas break was ruined - **[2021-03-01T14:32:08] Edward C. Holmes:** Exactly!! **[2021-03-01T14:32:37] Kristian G. Andersen:** Well, at least she didn't die from COVID-19 or had to take care of patients with COVID-19, so there's a silver lining...Unreal. **[2021-03-01T14:33:12] Edward C. Holmes:** Would be quite good if you Tweeted this:stuck_out_tongue: **[2021-03-01T14:33:16] Kristian G. Andersen:** "Christmas break was lost to crunching further sequences and briefing journalists". **[2021-03-01T14:33:29] Kristian G. Andersen:** So, so, so sorry for her. **[2021-03-01T14:35:01] Andrew Rambaut:** I am so livid. But I can't say anything as Emma is a former student. Someone needs to call this out. I can't believe the limited set of citations too - Franky Bollocks'' paper? FFS. **[2021-03-01T14:35:47] Kristian G. Andersen:** Yeah - this really should be called out. Some of the worst I have read. What the heck went wrong here? Or are these people just so full of themselves by now that this seems ok? **[2021-03-01T14:36:34] Andrew Rambaut:** ```The 'phylogenetic' tools used to track these variants were largely developed by evolutionary biologists to study the lineage of organisms. They were designed to construct phylogenetic trees that can ask, for example, whether flightevolved twice in mammals, or whether two large groups of bats began as one that then diverged.Now, co-opted to track a pandemic, the leaves of the phylogenetic tree represent SARS-CoV-2 sequences taken from individuals, and the tree grows with the number of cases ```Now co-opted? **[2021-03-01T14:37:11] Kristian G. Andersen:** Haha - "whether flight evolved twice in mammals" **[2021-03-01T14:37:18] Edward C. Holmes:** Here are some of my emails: [shared file(s): Screen Shot 2021-03-02 at 9.36.14 am.png] **[2021-03-01T14:37:19] Kristian G. Andersen:** The best example they could come up with. **[2021-03-01T14:38:53] Edward C. Holmes:** And another. This is like a freedom of information act request: [shared file(s): Screen Shot 2021-03-02 at 9.38.02am.png] **[2021-03-01T14:39:14] Edward C. Holmes:** The whole thing is complete and embarrassing shit. **[2021-03-01T14:39:41] Kristian G. Andersen:** "We will *for sure* address this". Sure. Great emails Eddie - this is embarrassing beyond belief - in Nature, no less. **[2021-03-01T14:41:36] Edward C. Holmes:** They were so transfixed on getting it into Nature that they didn't see what they were doing. **[2021-03-01T14:41:42] Kristian G. Andersen:** And good choice taking yourself off the paper - I did the same on Charles' paper too because he wouldn't listen tosense either. Some scientists are so full of themselves by now - but this has to be the worst example I have seen. **[2021-03-01T14:50:20] Edward C. Holmes:** Just so my emails make sense, the text that I am commenting on stated that UK govt policy was based on Emma's tweet. At the very least the corresponding authors need to be told this is insulting. **[2021-03-01T14:52:32] Andrew Rambaut:** Yeah - we wrote a report which went in to the SoS **[2021-03-01T14:55:36] Andrew Rambaut:** Then technical notes went to WHO and other governments. **[2021-03-01T14:57:31] Edward C. Holmes:** This should be pointed out. I'm very disappointed with Nick Goldman as he tried to defend all this. I got my name removed from the Email chains. **[2021-03-01T14:58:56] Kristian G. Andersen:** Too harsh? [shared file(s): Screen Shot 2021-03-01 at 14.58.38.png] **[2021-03-01T14:59:22] Kristian G. Andersen:** (not posted yet) **[2021-03-01T15:00:32] Edward C. Holmes:** Nope **[2021-03-01T15:00:47] Andrew Rambaut:** I am not sure 'misrepresents' more than completely ignores. **[2021-03-01T15:00:58] Kristian G. Andersen:** "Ignores" - better. **[2021-03-01T15:01:14] Edward C. Holmes:** Yes indeed **[2021-03-01T15:04:30] Andrew Rambaut:** I can just imagine the cringy reply about how everyone worked super hard. **[2021-03-01T15:05:39] Kristian G. Andersen:** Hah - there's no going back from this other than a full retraction. This is embarrassing beyond belief. **[2021-03-01T15:09:26] Edward C. Holmes:** It is indeed a total disaster. The original version was a technical piece about issues in phylogenetic analysis. It was fine. The Editor then completely rewrote it into this shit. But all that stuff about Emma saving the world came from the paper authors. That was embarrassing and misleading. It also totally over-hyped the issues. Rob Lanfear saidhe agreed with my concerns but still decided to be an author! **[2021-03-01T15:11:19] Kristian G. Andersen:** One very important question the authors need to ask themselves - would they have been authors if this had been for, say, Nature Microbiology and not Nature? **[2021-03-01T15:12:32] Kristian G. Andersen:** Charles trying to convince me to stay on his paper made it very clear that he had been talking directly to NEJM and Cell and that they both wanted it - this should _never_ be a consideration when it comes to sloppy science. Orwhatever-the-fuck this is. Just horrible. **[2021-03-01T15:13:28] Edward C. Holmes:** The reaction to their paper is EXACTLY what I told them would happen. They were warned!! **[2021-03-01T15:23:18] Andrew Rambaut:** There we go. As predicted: [shared file(s): image.png] **[2021-03-01T15:23:31] Andrew Rambaut:** "exactly what we were trying to avoid" **[2021-03-01T15:27:14] Edward C. Holmes:** That's total BS!!! You saw my emails. **[2021-03-01T15:31:11] Edward C. Holmes:** If they wanted to avoid these issues they would removed all the personal stuff. **[2021-03-01T15:32:54] Kristian G. Andersen:** And this is directly insulting to me - this isn't about fucking me man! [shared file(s): Screen Shot 2021-03-01 at15.31.21.png] **[2021-03-01T15:37:59] Edward C. Holmes:** I've just written to Rob. **[2021-03-01T15:40:43] Robert F. Garry:** Jeez - just got back from a long lecture - may have started out with good intentions, but wow so off base. "And good choice taking yourself off the paper" INDEED! Safe to say Rob didn't get the point.... **[2021-03-01T15:46:45] Andrew Rambaut:** Just written to Emma. Don't want to pile on these people - it is Nick and Christophe who should be responsible. **[2021-03-01T15:50:15] Edward C. Holmes:** Nick & Christophe are indeed the main culprits although Emma did nothing to change what was written about her. **[2021-03-01T15:54:20] Edward C. Holmes:** And Rob's Twitter response is just untrue. We even had a bloody email chat about these concerns!!